The increasing presence of disruptive bots in Second Life, like those associated with Brenden and MadisonCybernetics, poses significant challenges to privacy and the overall experience of genuine players, prompting a call for action from Linden Labs to restore order and protect resident interests.
Skot Kinsella
In recent years, the increasing presence of individuals like Brenden (insert last name here) and MadisonCybernetics (insert last name here), among others, in various sims has raised significant concerns. They often trigger security systems, invade privacy, and disrupt the experience for genuine player-driven avatars. This behavior has become a frustrating aspect of Second Life that many residents would like to see eliminated.
As an early adopter of technology who works in the tech field and enjoys it, I recognize that this issue is escalating and seriously affecting the residents of the grid. It seems that the floodgates have opened, allowing bots to take over in a way we have not seen before. These bots invade residents' privacy and create chaos wherever they appear, regardless of how briefly they stay.
I urge Linden Labs to consider that their residents drive sales, generate content, and promote Second Life adoption through word-of-mouth to new members. It is crucial to find a way to manage the chaos caused by these bots and restore some sense of control over the systems being implemented in Second Life.
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Valencia Skydancer
The Madison ones worry me because they steal builds for AI. People put real creativity in their work, and the Madison bots exist literally to steal and copy.
Tiesahh Resident
Valencia Skydancer let's not overlook the bonnie bots.
primerib1 Resident
Tiesahh Resident The Bonnie Bots don't steal anything. They are just carrying a live census, using information easily available through standard LSL scripting.
Tiesahh Resident
primerib1 Resident don't buy what you are selling
Tiesahh Resident
The MadisonCybernetics Bots are beyond intrusive. I have a list of 11 that have been parcel banned physically; that does not count the dozens on my security orb. I have a private sim. There were often 5 a day every day. It was completely out of control and never ending; after about 2 weeks of this nonsense I set the sim with ban lines to stop the unwelcome invasion. I do not consent for any of my data to be mined, If you have been banned stop sending the bots. Linden has the means to obliterate bots, most online platforms have practices in place to provide an environment free of bots. There really is no such thing as a good bot. And any service they claim to provide is not relevant or beneficial to what I want in my SL experience, there are means in place to manage otherwise without this self proclaimed service. Sorry, I do not want the extended warranty so stop calling. It is not ok to intrude, period. This falls under none of your business and stay off of the premises that I pay for.
Winter Silversmith
Tiesahh Resident
billy Madison
I've had 36 Madison bots visit my parcel in the last 30 days.
Meanwhile, Billy makes comments like this "Regarding Ginger Pudding's comment, we do have hundreds of accounts, but there's no advantage to sending more than one bot to a location, and we only run a small group at a time."
If there's no advantage why have I been visited by 36 so far?
Tiesahh Resident
Winter Silversmith because the truth is not evident in his claims. I can show screenshots of the massive level of intrusion of his
cough
'survey bots' presence, which is 100% contradictory to his assertions of innocence.billy Madison
Hey Skot,
I'm the owner of Madison Cybernetics. Our survey bots are designed to map land and structures. This allows us to provide our autonomous AI assistants with the data needed to effectively direct residents to the right location, going beyond what you'd normally get from a search. For example, if a resident asks, "Where is a good 1024m parcel with a beach and access to the Blake Sea that's available for rent or sale so I can sail?" or "Where can I go to see/buy/do [insert place/thing]?", our system can find suitable options.
The bots themselves have no avatars or attachments, so they are invisible and have a complexity of 0, minimizing any strain on the environment. They also don't collect or track any personal data and are completely blind to anything involving people. We aren't trying to catalog Second Life data; the whole point is to connect people to people/places. Parcels or structures the bots can't see or reach simply won't be recommended when someone is searching for something.
I agree with you; they're a pain in the ass popping in and out, and bots cost time and money to run. If Linden Lab had a program where I could get the needed data without running the bots, I'd be the first in line. I wouldn't even mind a background check or giving Linden Lab access to our servers – anything.
You mentioned that they set off security systems. That's a whole other, but related, problem: people use visitor trackers/security systems, and often these objects are collecting more data and tracking people more extensively than the map-making bots you see zipping around. I feel that privacy should be paramount, especially in Second Life. As it stands now, the mentality is that if you have a spot to place an object, it's okay to track everyone who comes or goes without their permission. Linden Lab's CasperSafe system even has this feature. Imagine in real life if every place you went to, your ID was scanned and your information and movements were logged.
Regarding Ginger Pudding's comment, we do have hundreds of accounts, but there's no advantage to sending more than one bot to a location, and we only run a small group at a time. We have so many accounts for clerical reasons; it's easier to separate back-end tests, etc., when they have distinct names.
I apologize to anyone our bots have caused issues for. If you experience any problems with them, please feel free to message me in-world, and I'll make sure it's taken care of.
Winter Silversmith
billy Madison
"Regarding Ginger Pudding's comment, we do have hundreds of accounts, but there's no advantage to sending more than one bot to a location, and we only run a small group at a time"
Strange, because quite a number of your invasive MadisonCybernetics bots have visited my parcel on the Mainland over the last couple weeks proving that you are either incompetent or lying to us.
I urge Linden Labs to prohibit ALL bots from leaving their home region. There is no reason for bots to be wandering all over SL. It's also time to block the accounts of those who do not properly identify as Scripted Agents vs human-driven Avatars.
You can "take care of any issues" by simply not sending your bots out anymore. We don't need you creating any fancy AI programs to find land for people, there are existing listings with literally thousands of parcels available.
Darling Brody
Hi billy Madison,
I suspect you know who I am. For those who don't know, I am the creator of the No-Bots product that keeps banning Billy's bots.
As someone who has collected extensive data on the behaviour of your bots, I would like to take issue with how you have been operating your bots. I challenge your statements about respecting people's privacy when you clearly do not respect a pretty clean "keep out" sign in the form of No-Bots banning your bots.
I have noted that several of your "MadisonCybernetics" bots (see example list below) have completed the Human-Test-Captcha in order to declare themselves as human operated Accounts in an attempt to bypass the No-Bot's automatic banning, despite the fact those Accounts are continuously detected operating as bots throughout secondlife.
MadisonCyberneticsAllele
MadisonCyberneticsAldehyde
MadisonCyberneticsAlkane
MadisonCyberneticsAmphetamine
People who are running No-Bots are making a pretty clear statement that they do not want any bots visiting their land, so it is extremely disrespectful of you to disregard their wishes by completing a Human-Test-Captcha to bypass that ban.
I'm sure you noticed that completing the captcha only allowed your bots to visit 12 No-Bots protected regions before being banned permanently again. This permanent ban was by design because I anticipated that a Bot-Master, such as yourself, would try completing the captcha to avoid being banned.
On behalf of my customers: You should consider any region with No-Bots to be a keep out sign, and respect it.
billy Madison
Darling Brody Our assistants are autonomous; your "CAPTCHA" is simply clicking a link – it's not a test. There's no attempt to bypass anything. If the intent were to sneakily zoom around and collect sensitive data, I probably wouldn't have chosen a naming convention for my bots that includes my name, made them all easily identifiable, and declared in their profiles that they are bots.
What troubles me is your statement, "As someone who has collected extensive data on the behaviour of your bots..." The nature of your product suggests that you are collecting data on avatars to determine if they are human or not, and creating a master list of data/visits to parcels with your device. How is collecting avatar data without people's permission via an object that people place on their land even remotely okay? Do the purchasers of your product know you are tracking/logging who enters their land, when, and where, 24/7?
I would much prefer a bot that briefly visits once in a while for 13 seconds to collect land data than have what amounts to a permanent tracking bug on my parcel, continuously streaming all avatar movement data around the clock to you.
For anyone that has similar products I will happily provide a list of all our survey bots. Just message me in-world.
billy Madison
Winter Silversmith , I will edit my comment for better clarity. To address Ginger's comment about a "300 mass invasion by Madison Cybernetics (name)," while we maintain a pool of bots, there is no advantage to sending more than one to a location at a time. Furthermore, we only run a small group of bots at any given time, meaning that only a small number from our total pool of bots are actively being used.
In reply to the statement, "We don't need you creating any fancy AI programs to find land for people; there are existing listings with literally thousands of parcels available," that argument could be made about almost anything in Second Life. We could say, "We don't need anyone creating new radio streams, houses, or anything," because there have literally been millions of such creations made in Second Life.
Winter Silversmith
billy Madison
We could say bots should be banned entirely from SecondLife... maybe we should. I've had over half a dozen of your stupid bots come to my parcel. Nothing has changed in the ownership of my parcel, there's no reason for them to be there at all, especially not several in 48 hours. Do you get the impression that most people do not like or want your service? That's the impression I'm getting reading all of these comments like mine.
Winter Silversmith
billy Madison
"Our assistants are autonomous; your "CAPTCHA" is simply clicking a link – it's not a test. There's no attempt to bypass anything"
The very action of creating a subroutine to check a box meant for humans to check (a test, hence the acronym "CAPTCHA" which stands for "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart" is, in fact, an "attempt to bypass" something.
By doing so and pretending you aren't shifts you and your organization further into the field of "deceptive practices" vs offering a legitimate service to consumers.
Winter Silversmith
billy Madison
"I would much prefer a bot that briefly visits once in a while for 13 seconds to collect land data than have what amounts to a permanent tracking bug on my parcel, continuously streaming all avatar movement data around the clock to you."
I dunno about everyone reading this, but I'd much prefer the bot stays off my parcel. Period.
Darling Brody
billy Madison
1) As others have pointed out, the CAPTCHA is intended to sort humans from bots. You cannot sit there and honestly tell us that you didn't understand that people using no-bots do not want your bots on their land or that you didn't know that the CAPTCHA was intended to keep your bots out of their land.
If you are genuine about respecting people's privacy why would you be dishonesty completing the Captcha to identify your Bots as human. You should be respecting people's wishes by avoiding locations using no-bots.
2) Given your tendency to have bots declare themselves human through a CAPTCHA, you appear to have confused my statement about collecting data on Bots. So, I will put it simply for you, I do not collect data on humans, I only collect data on bots.
Details: I monitor the behaviour of avatars in the region using no-bots (lsl) until they reach a threshold that determines they are human, at which point no-bots stops monitoring them without saving any data. However those avatars that are determined to be bots have a bot-score saved to a central database. Once that score passes a threshold the bot is banned on sight. If the banned bot completes a CAPTCH it is deleted from the central database.
3) If you would like to respect people's privacy I can provide you with a real-time list of regions that are using no-bots if you agree to keep your bots out of those regions. I am sure the people living in those regions would appreciate your cooperation in respecting their privacy.
This may be the best way forward for everyone - a no-bots list that works like the robots.txt file for website. How about it? Are you ready to cooperate with the second life community and respect their wishes?
Valencia Skydancer
this is a blatant lie, multiple Madison accounts were showing up every day to our region. I just went and searched for all of them and banned them all.
Caroly Rossini
billy Madison
Every time I put a new object on one of my lands, your bots or others appear, I don't do land expansion or reduction, so I doubt that your answer of "effectively direct residents to the correct location, going beyond what is normally obtained by performing a search" is not credible and if it were it would not help the spirit of exploring SL (enjoying the trip and experience). I understand that you are only taking advantage of the gap that Linden leaves (I think intentionally) to obtain dividends and that any request as a user that you stop invading everyone's SL experience is fruitless, I would like to know of an official response from Linden in this regard, since if this continues or worsens it is not worth continuing
Better map the annoyance of users for your "contribution" to SL
Caroly Rossini
The experience in SL is progressively declining due to the absence of control and supervision by Linden, I have seen for years the constant interest in attracting new users with "fireworks" but leaving aside the after-sales service, also considering that the cost of premium memberships increases more and more. Linden has the key that controls the flow, there was a time when even the DNI was required to create the account and it may be something strict but effective for a community of people and not just avatars (multi-accounts that should also have a maximum number set or at least be identified as a secondary account)
Ginger Pudding
Perhaps a tighter rule, limitations script wise & categories for bots might be beneficial. Greeter bots where they stay on the designated land & only chat locally. NPC, similar, land based only etc. Ai companion's & so forth. While heavy limitations are placed on these spy bots per se. Are these Brenden's, etc necessary in world? Especially a more proactive stamp on the bots that beg for money & post fraudulent links. Those should have no place in SL Given many fall for these links & ends up out of pocket real world & locked out of their account with, given some longevity in SL, forgotten security / original sign ups etc. Where residents are at risk of fraud & harassment there should be a stronger sense of duty by SL to protect the residents. Having reported many bot over the years for infringements, telling a harassed land owner to file a report on a 300 mass invasion by Madison cybernetics(name) is not a valid solution.
Peter Stindberg
I am researching bots in SL for about 4 years now. My observation is that rogue bots (those who are confirmed bots, but have the scripted-agent flag not set), have a very short lifespan, sometimes only a day, before they get deleted/retired by the Lab or their operators.
After about a year since the scripted-agent status was introduced, my observation was that all "known" bots had the flag properly set. The rogue bots - therefore one has to assume - are rogue on purpose. Their operators WANT them to violate the policy, and know only a high churn rate - create them fast, let them run for a day or two - then retire them, is how they can achieve that.
There is nothing we residents can do, and little the Lab can actually do. They could make signups harder (and we all don't want that), they can enter an arm's race (and we see with spammers/antispammers how well that works), or they can state an example and litigate one bot operator into oblivion as a deterrent to others.
Winter Silversmith
Peter Stindberg
"There is nothing we residents can do, and little the Lab can actually do. They could make signups harder"
Restrict bots (scripted agents) to their home regions. If they leave it they get warned or deleted.
Linden Labs has complete control over who they allow into their game and what those members do when they are in the game. The fact is LL has become the 'absentee landlord' and allowed us to reach a point there are (no doubt paid for) bots than actual human beings in SL.
It's disappointing how far this platform has fallen in the last 5 years. I keep hoping for the best, been in SL for 16 years now and I find bots, even the ones who mind their own business and stay at home, to be annoying. I play SL to interact with HUMANS not friggin AI crap. (hoping that billy person reads this too).
Darling Brody
Peter Stindberg Even the bots with the bot-flag can act dishonourably. I noted several of the "MadisonCybernetics" bots completed the captcha and declaring themselves as human operated to avoid being banned by no-bots. A fatal mistake for the bot owner Billy, because doing that and continuing to operate as a bot automatically triggers an irreversible ban.
Anyway, I just wanted to note that Billy and "MadisonCybernetics" are not respecting privacy at all. Placing a copy of "No-Bots" is a pretty clear declaration of what the land owner wants. Therefore completing the captcha to gain access to locations where they have been banned is not at all respecting people's privacy.