Don't notify of Group Ejections / Bans
tracked
Ziel Omizu
Simple request - people ejected or banned from groups, shouldn't be notified that they have been.
Sometimes a user is being removed through no major fault, or for fault that isn't immediately occurring within the group itself. Being able to remove or ban silently is less likely to cause immediate or more volatile response. Sure, sometimes it'll still happen - but there's also good chance it'll go by unnoticed, or unnoticed enough for tension to die down.
You aren't notified when someone removes you from their friends list, or bans you from a region or parcel - so why are people still notified when they're removed from groups? If the admins wish to inform a user a reason for the eject / ban, I don't see why they can't just send an IM of their own accord.
I don't currently see good reason to keep these notifications.
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KecskeShajt Corvinus
You have a point, though friendlist removal actually quite noticeabvle as the calling cards will instantly appear in your trash upon removal.
Ziel Omizu
KecskeShajt Corvinus It's not the most noticable when I've like, never looked at it, and know many users who've told me "I only use the search bar" in their inventory... to which, I scream internally - but point of it being less glaring than a notification stands.
Moon Haunting
No support. Ontop of everything else going on with exploitive behaviour in SL, we don't need a tool large fee'd brand groups can use to farm money from members by subtly ejecting users and leaving it to benefit of the doubt to make them pay again to rejoin. Even in the cases of free groups, if the purpose of joining is to get notices and manage permissions, it is very easy for someone not to notice when they have been removed and miss out on events they want to know about + lose land access unexpectedly.
And even smaller than that, for groups made for small social and friend groups, I find it hard to believe that seeing and or not seeing the removal notice is going to change the reaction if it was going to be bad already.
I can understand wanting peace to manage your access, but also there are tools for this such as the ability to block that user directly during the time period of removal, if not simply leaving them blocked from that point on if it was the result of conflict. This just seems more exploitable than beneficial.
Ziel Omizu
Moon Haunting These concerns were also brought up by other people, which I'd responded:
- Make it so fee groups give immediate refund within X month period. I'll newly say, make that sort of exploitation reportable, even.
- If you're being removed from a group you get notices and land access from, that's already how it works with current removal. No true change there.
- This application isn't always for your ownsake. These situations are messy.
- The option to let the one doing the kicking choose to notify or not, or make a "yes I really want to do this" button-click, was also suggested.
Getting into "what ifs" opens up the conversation for alternate routes, but this was originally for a consistency, and, yeah - I'd like to protect me and mine's peace, which isn't the easiest with current implementation.
Moon Haunting
Ziel Omizu I would love if deliberate removal in a fee'd group gave a refund, but I can see how that wouldn't be viable. Having the fee refunded implies the fee is not spendable, or that removal requires first having the refund ready, given there is multiple people you can give kick and ban perms too this puts into question where the refund would come from. It seems like an overcomplication and a risk if I'm honest, and still wouldn't solve a new introduction of exploitable perms but would instead shift it to make moderation a even more restricted task.
I will say the idea of getting to customize the removal message per group, or maybe pick a reason from a pre-set list of categories to further remove the personal aspects could be useful.
Users still have a right to know when they are removed however, groups are organizations, and so long as they can collect fees, consolidate land, alter perms, influence vendor prices, determine access, then users SHOULD know when their membership of them has drastically changed.
It is not the group owner/mod that is lacking control of the interaction when a user must be removed and/or banned, the changes are not applying to the group owner/mod, therefore the group owner/mod should not be additionally enforcing personal privacy settings via the group. You still own the group at the end of the day, and can still block them directly if a group ban wasn't enough.
Imbolc Sirbu
(partly copy of my text below). It has two sides (like often). And there are errors by group owners as well (a group owner is a human being like all of us), and we make mistakes.
Adding a reason would be most human behaviour imo : 'we close our group, or closing store, or you did not wear clothes in shop ... etc' , a reason. Just polite & being kind.
Ziel Omizu
Imbolc Sirbu Unfortunately, some people are't owed politeness or kindness. Respect is a two way street, imo.
Imbolc Sirbu
Ziel Omizu sad truth indeed.
AAngel Braveheart
Trouble makers react by getting nasty.
Rate, but I agree 110%
Imbolc Sirbu
AAngel Braveheart that is not always the case, i've experienced errors by group owners (a group owner is a human being like all of us), and we make mistakes, simple. Adding a reason would be most human behaviour. 'we close our group, or store, you did not wear clothes etc' , a reason.
AAngel Braveheart
Imbolc SirbuThat would be a useful option.
Imbolc Sirbu
AAngel Braveheart thank you
Ziel Omizu
Imbolc Sirbu Easy solution that doesn't require interaction: "Do you really want to do this?" popup. Make it big and annoying if it's a worry!
Lucky Clover
Everyone should know when people are removed from groups AND if they're banned/unfriended/etc. That's human communication at it's most minimal. There's so many reasons to keep these notifications, and there's so many reasons to Add More, not remove, notifications like this.
I do understand wanting to be able to Customize them though, such as 'cleaning friends list lmk if you want to be re-added' or 'removing everyone and closing group' etc.
If someone responds to their removal with hostility, that's on them and report that to LL if needed. What's more likely to happen, if we don't have customizable notifications, is they'll just ask for the reason. Which is solvable by having customizable notifications. And if it is a social situation where you're expecting a hostile response ... ideally you've already communicated to them enough beforehand, so they'll expect the notification coming either way.
Maybe the customization options can have a 'don't send any notification' checkbox, but by default, people should know they're being removed, especially if it's in a social situation.
Ziel Omizu
Lucky Clover Clearly, there is disagreement here. Situations are not cut and dry, people aren't entitled to explanation. It can give breathing room for a potential response - if they do or don't care enough to give one. Sometimes it's not your own peace you're protecting, but your own peace IS something you're entitled to. You are always free to send your own message or explanation if you see fit.
marxman1313 Resident
Heavily disagreed and I would argue it needs to be the other way around. People should always be notified when they are removed/ejected/banned and not left hanging. I don't know what it is about modern culture but it's just not right to exclude someone and they don't even know. I have been subjected to this many times and it is extremely mentally painful to go through trying to figure out who, where and why.
Problematic people will always be problematic and those people are the responsibility of moderation teams of both groups and LL of it gets to a point of those people being volatile or hostile. But everyone deserves to at least know why and not be left with all that pain and confusion. Likewise, an answer might help people come to terms with their removal.
Ziel Omizu
marxman1313 Resident Not all groups are professional groups - majority are actually family / friends groups, since those are small and, well. Per small circle. I don't view this as a viable reason do expect a "moderation team".
marxman1313 Resident
Ziel Omizu Doesn't matter, it still scales down to small groups, even and especially friend and family groups. As long as someone has the power to eject someone else that someone else should have the right to know they have been ejected and preferably why. Leaving people hanging like that is just cruel.
Ziel Omizu
marxman1313 Resident It's not cruel to protect your own peace of mind, you'd be entirely free to tell people if you saw fit.
AlettaMondragon Resident
marxman1313 Resident I agree completely. I think the reason for this behavior lately is the massive brainwashing, brand religions, consumerism and conditioning tricks everywhere. Have you noticed how ads turned into self-centered first person view in the last 10 years or so? Almost every ad says "I" or "My" something now when they want to sell something to you. And they address
"You"
in the rest, implying that only you matter, your comfort matters, your excellent service matters, of course just pay for it already!That is sadly enough to turn many people into antisocial drones that only care about themselves and their hobbies and interests got reduced to shopping, shopping, subscriptions to overpriced services and some more shopping. Then there was the Covid pandemic too, which reinforced this big time while everyone was sitting at home, having no idea what to do. Shop online! Subscribe to more streaming services! Perfect for the brainwashing agenda.
Especially those people that were already self centered, arrogant, and never cared about other people's rights, feelings and wellbeing were perfect subjects for this mind control game.
marxman1313 Resident
AlettaMondragon Resident There's more to it than that and gone on for far longer, but I'd rather not talk real world politics here if possible.
AlettaMondragon Resident
In fact the examples you brought, removing from friend list and ejecting or banning from land, there should be a notification for those as well. There is, if you are on the land or nearby, a notification sent to you if you were ejected and/or banned. As for the friend list, it would be nice to know which random removed us, instead of having to see if one of our friends with problems had a bad moment again and removed everyone from their list, emptied their profile, and started acting like they vanished, while they actually need help. There's that, too.
I don't know what your problem is with taking responsibility for your actions, but if you ban someone from somewhere, the person has the right to be notified and you must be honorable and an adult about it, not a coward. My advice to you is: grow up.
Try to respect people in your group and you shall get the same respect in return. Censorship tools only help you build a reputation of someone that silences anyone for any reason.
Ziel Omizu
AlettaMondragon Resident I am grown. It's not just my own peace I'm protecting - situations are not so cut and dry or easy. If it were for MY sake, I'm quite confident enough to say a big "F you bud". But it's not.
What makes you think people OWE anyone free rein to say and do whatever they like? This isn't big organization responsibility - it's private social groups and small business. They don't owe you jack. I could say you could do some growing up yourself for thinking you're entitled to such.
AlettaMondragon Resident
Ziel Omizu Even without knowing you or what groups you might have, it looks like you disrespect people, make them upset, then say a big "F you bud" and you don't understand what the problem is. Everyone has rights, not only you and the people you like.
Ziel Omizu
AlettaMondragon Resident That is a wild reach for someone throwing insults the way you have been. This is the last response you're getting from me, have a good day.
Rowan Amore
This may have had it roots back when groups were used mostly for land and donating your availble tier to a group. Without the notification, you could be removed from a group where you still have land tier donated without realizing. I would assume if you are out of a group, you would no longer want your tier available to them.
Lurr Macbain
Rowan Amore Perhaps removal from a group could also remove any donated tier, etc. with a warning message if that's the case or disallow users with donated tier to be removed until tier donation is removed first? That would necessitate a discussion with the individual being removed, but ... it'd be crappy to boot someone and keep their tier donation. Also -- to be transparent, I haven't seen how tier donation works -- so maybe that's already been addressed?
Ziel Omizu
Rowan Amore This should be a given if you're removing someone from a group, tbh. I'd also expect that any paid-for entry would be refunded, at LEAST if it were within a short enough period (3 months?). That way groups aren't just stealing L$ from people by letting them join then booting them back out.
SL Feedback
updated the status to
tracked
SL Feedback
Hello, and thanks for taking the time to write up this request about not notifying residents when they’re ejected or banned from a group (or allowing a “silent remove” option). We found an earlier report covering the same idea in Second Life’s previous bug tracking system, so we’re marking this as tracked and linking it to the existing issue:
BUG-234024
.Your points about reducing escalation in moderation situations, and the inconsistency with other actions (friends list removal, parcel/region bans), match the prior request closely. We’ll consolidate feedback under the tracked item so it’s easier for the team to review the use cases and potential implementation options (e.g., removing the notification entirely vs. adding an owner/role checkbox).
We don’t have an ETA to share, but keeping it tracked ensures it stays on our radar. Thank you again for the thoughtful context—please continue to share these kinds of improvements.
Linn Darkwatch
SL Feedback And sometimes a group owner does want a message though. As I recall, there was another Suggestion about letting the group owner edit the eject/ban message. This could be merged with that as another option for the group owner to choose - default message, tailored message ("We're ejecting everyone who joined just for X event, but hope to see you back next season!") or no message at all.
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