PBR Re-Education
Princess Evergarden
Linden Labs,
Users do not understand PBR technology and they see it as a negative based on the implementation that has transpired over the last year. PBR doesn't work for users on lower-end computers. Color mapping has changed and many do not understand this or even know that it has happened.
It is important that you, Linden Labs, do your due diligence to make sure users are educated and understand PBR so that creators are actually able to make the transition to PBR without angering a portion of our user base.
We hear things like, "Even on PBR viewers, I don't like how colors look." "I don't like PBR so I won't by any PBR items." "PBR should never be used on clothing." "PBR is just to make things shiny."
My suggestion to combat this is for Linden Labs to produce a series of short, easily digestible to the public, tips or videos on PBR & ACEs color mapping. This will not only help users understand the reasons for the change and the purpose but why PBR is a good technology. Even asking users for tips to submit and have a place where people can view these tips to try to be able to use PBR.
To be fair, I think this should start with a heartfelt apology to the community for the poor implementation of PBR and lack of education on your part.
I think you'd be surprised to see how many still are not on the PBR hype train. There are many creators who have not done a single PBR release. They are still hanging on to Blinn-Phong. I suspect they worry about sales, knowledge on how to transition from BP to PBR, etc. These are all things that could be helped or solved with Linden Labs actually explaining what happened and how they are working to fix it and education on PBR and how it will help lift Second Life into the next decade.
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deplove Resident
probably many PBR enthusiasts will cry scandal, or I will be labeled as old-fashioned, but instead of leaving space for just one texture method as some would like PBR to be, can't we also leave the choice to use Blinn-Phong? I make my own textures for my objects, and when it comes to clothes, I like to use real and patterned fabrics which I haven't found in PBR, or if there is something it's not as nice as a Dolce & Gabbana or Versace fabric. Moreover, it's annoying and disrespectful to those who told us to buy a better PC. LL must not forget that it is thanks to the mass of users, housewives, workers, students, retirees that it stays afloat, and I hope for a long time to come.
Ajay McDowwll
Well-said, Princess.
An additional issue is literally leaving your home. Say you have on a cool PBR outfit, then go out in public. The landing point is 2500 meters up and there's not a reflection probe in sight. Suddenly your black outfit has an unattractive blue haze over it, and the shadows that showed up marvelously in your home with a reflection probe and PBR lighting are non-existent.
Or you've put on a lovely white PBR-textured dress, and you leave home and hit the afore-mentioned sky-high venue... and the thing looks putty grey, as if it hasn't even baked.
At this point, I've given up wearing PBR in public, which kills me because some of my favorite creators have moved to PBR-only clothing. I understand why; having to texture for both PBR and fallback-textures is a pain. It doesn't change the fact that wearing a PBR outfit in a non-PBR-enabled venue is going to look bad at best.
No way to wear a reflection probe either so you at least look okay to yourself. Believe me, I tried.
These are just the petty vanity issues, folks; it doesn't even begin to address the issues so many others have done so eloquently in this comment thread. I've been here since 2007, I love SL, but this was a terrible decision. Once again, a company has failed to pay attention to what its userbase is practically begging them to hear, only to reap the fruits of what they've sown.
Linden Lab, do better.
Zalificent Corvinus
Ajay McDowwll
There is a reason LL do not allow you to wear a functioning "Reflection Probe", that being that ref-probes are constantly updating laggy sh*te, and if morons were allowed to WEAR them in public, you'd have 40 morons on an event sim all wearing ref-probes and the region would grind to a halt.
spirit Wingtips
Princess evergarden i agree with you Linden Labs needs to do some media releases and and how to's on PBR 1) WHAT it is 2)HOW it effecfs your sl 3) HOW sl will look with the new graphics engine and PBR 4) HOW pbr will effect your machine.
Dana Enyo
First, let me say I agree with Princess E. Although there are a LOT of PBR-related graphics available on YouTube and Flickr by many residents (including me), it would be nice to see SL produce some really definitive material.
I'm a clothing creator and jumped into PBR in Jan 2024 when the Firestorm viewer was still in Alpha. It opened up a whole world of new fashion ideas; it also created an immediate need to educate Residents about what to expect when wearing it.
If you're putting a building or furniture on a sim, you get to control the environment--how to do that is one kind of needed education. WEARING PBR is completely different--you don't control the environment so need to understand the changes in your appearance that may happen when you TP to a new location. The big idea is to make those changes FUN, and learn how to plan you outfit to adapt.
For me, PBR has made the act of Getting Dressed more fun than it's ever been. And playing with lighting (and encouraging others to do the same) adds a whole new layer to the experience.
Even if your PC doesn’t run the new viewers well, at least load up a Firestorm Beta version, rez or wear some PBR and see how it looks. Then jump back to your older viewer to move around. There really is a lot of great-looking new stuff out there.
Eren Padar
"To be fair, I think this should start with a heartfelt apology to the community for the poor implementation of PBR and lack of education on your part. "
In truth Philip Linden actually made such a public apology, and deserves credit for having the honesty and guts to do so. But was that public apology posted on the SL splash page? How many people have actually seen that apology, and where can it be found?
An apology doesn't work if people never see it. But to his credit, Philip did admit they wrongfully rushed PBR to the public in effort to meet the SLB21 deadline... and totally botched the job. Firestorm wasn't prepared. Their own system wasn't prepared. And unknown to most-- the SL platform itself wasn't designed to use PBR (ie they had to kludge the fit).
So here a year later, we're still seeing PBR fighting with legacy graphics, once nice, shiny metal nearly glowing in the dark due to PBR, and viewers lagging and crashing due solely to PBR (yes, that's a fact).
As a note, the new Firestorm BETA version goes a long way in fixing much of that, and I'm hoping things will improve even more. But the constant fight between PBR and Legacy graphics continues (not only the user/merchant fight but visually... in-world), and as a merchant I am most tired of it. While I do see some advantage to PBR, I have to wonder why Linden Lab would add further burden to the instability of an already borderline platform.
When a GeForce graphics card boasting 12 gigs of GRAM can't handle SL graphics... someone messed up. Philip openly admitted that (kudos there Philip), but there is still much repair that is needed.
Educating the public might be beneficial, but I doubt it will do much to solve the problems. One of my recommendations was to create a PBR to Legacy converter (translator) for machines that simply can't handle PBR... and for such machines cancel the Advance Lighting requirement that knocked so many people offline. Those would seem logical and possible proactive solutions. Because no amount of user education is going to solve the very real core problems PBR brought to the SL platform. It might help us deal better, but until they get to where everyone can see at least some semblance of PBR, people are still rightly going to complain.
Mari Moonbeam
During the just closed Fantasy Fair a goodly portion in one region was PBR -part appeared as full bright white [I'm on last FS non PBR viewer], I let creator know and the full bright was promptly turned off, the white remained and creator said they could not SEE what I saw on their PBR viewer . Back up textures -don't in all cases back up I guess.
I have a 2k 2 year old machine that well exceeds the specs of today - fans never on except when I'm in PBR areas with PBR viewer. Settings 80m two avatars max 20k avatar and I'm at ARC below 30k. I am not of the mind I wish to buy replacement machines annually for SL to see that weird plastic PBR shell and lousy water [in a world with sailing and beach homes? ]. I fried a few computers in the early years but am being prudent today .
When I started SL I was told we should all see and experience the same thing. PBR - even with experienced builders can't do this.
Why did anyone think the residents want to fiddle and stick probes as if every teleport is a cover shoot? The only education I want is how to go from place to place
immersively
. Don't tell the customer how to behave - have the providers provide what we CAN see . Give them the tools , guidance to- from what I read above -is a complex process that needs to be "dumbed" down for SL's platform and user's base equipment . Or look for/invent another approach. Don't expect your customer to do it.Eren Padar
Mari Moonbeam I have to agree. I have a high-level 12th Gen i5 computer, 16 gigs on BUS, a GeForce 3060 with 16 gigs GRAM on the card, a 2TB SSD drive and a fast cable internet connection... and crashed regularly at Fantasy Faire. I never crashed before PBR.
Dan Linden fortunately directed me to the Firestorm BETA release and things improved considerably, showing that there is at least hope... for MY machine. Not so much for others.
Someone on these forums stated that my system is not "gamer level". My response to him was that while it's not top-shelf it is most certainly gamer-level... and that if anyone needs any more power than my system to use Second Life... something is wrong with Second Life, not their computer. I hold to that statement.
SL is absolutely the most demanding application I run; not even the most powerful game even comes close to the graphics-card burning, RAM-sucking nature of SL. How many people left SL due to PBR? How many are currently considering doing so, for the first time in years?
I'm going to lay the cards on the table: Linden Lab has a long history of making knee-jerk decisions without any consideration for the welfare of customers. Their profit bottom-line has always been their top priority. But at times that viewpoint has bitten them in the butt (such as when the system lost 16 to 20% of its regions and tens of thousands of users due to a price-gouging price hike).
These types of decisions need to stop. Linden Lab has failed to learn a very basic lesson: they will not gain new customers by making the system more difficult, confusing, or equipment-demanding to use. They will in truth lose customers over such issues. Second Life does not have to perfectly imitate real life; Minecraft proved that beyond all question (as have other games). Graphic perfection is not required on this platform. Usability by all residents most certainly is required, because when a resident can no longer use Second Life (or SL crawls to snail pace on their computer)... that user will cease using Second Life.
Like you, I'm not going to buy a new computer every two years just to use Second Life. Every one of my other applications works fine-- even direct competitors to the SL platform. That is a reality LL really should consider before making further system-shaking decisions.
If anything, Second Life needs to simplify use, not make it more difficult.
Zalificent Corvinus
"Users do not understand PBR technology"
Some of us understand it all too well, we've seen it on other platforms, we KNOW it's strengths, AND WEAKNESSES.
"they see it as a negative based on the implementation"
Of course we do, it's a fustercluck coded half finished abortion of HALF of the lowest standard of PBR, rolled out about 3 years too early.
The entire lighting system on which any PBR system depends, hasn't even begun to be implemented, the tone mapping is a bad joke, and the shaders are childishly bad, especially the way it handles speculars on matte surfaces, that's why everything looks like its been sprayed with polyurethane varnish.
"This will not only help users understand the reasons for the change"
Some backoffice types listened to bad advice, and fraudulent claims that "adding PBR will bring in vast numbers of new users", which it hasn't, almost a year and a half now, where is this vast number of PBR loving newbies we were promised by the loudmouthed know-nothing Futureness cultists?
"so that creators are actually able to make the transition to PBR without angering a portion of our user base"
Now there is a worthless nonsense statement, a portion of the userbase are guaranteed to be "angered" by transitioning to PBR, because they can't run a PBR Lag-tech viewer without blowing a grand or more they currently don't have spare.
Spamming people with "Educational" propaganda about how the new thing that's ruined their SL is "hella kewl" won't stop the anger, just increase it.
"have a place where people can view these tips to try to be able to use PBR"
Such a place already exists, it's the official SL forum, and the threads you describe are full of Tech Illiterate Futurenes Cultists screaming "works fine for me go buy a new PC".
"I suspect they worry about sales"
Welcome to Marketing 101... If you make ugly crap people don't like and don't want, don't be surprised when they refuse to BUY IT.
"I think you'd be surprised to see how many still are not on the PBR hype train"
No, I wouldn't, based off the typical PC specs for GAMERS on Steam, we could expect PBR as it is currently to drive off 15-30% of the userbase over the next few years.
That's enough to push SL into the red, and get it closed.
"education on PBR and how it will help lift Second Life into the next decade."
As the situation currently stands, I doubt it will help SL into another decade.
Eren Padar
Zalificent Corvinus "that's why everything looks like its been sprayed with polyurethane varnish."
I had to love that comment. I think you covered the issues quite well. So one has to wonder why Linden Lab has not... and whatever in their collective thinking lead them to believe that bringing a not-even-half-baked PBR to the SL platform would be beneficial.
Unfortunately it's here to stay and all they can do is rush to try and make it a viable system. That's kind of like trying to stop a train wreck after the train brakes have already failed. Trying to fix those brakes while the train is moving is one bear of a problem.
I wish I could give your comment 20 likes... and I definitely hope Linden Lab reads it. I saw a YouTube vlog by a systems tech who took 20 minutes to explain exactly why PBR isn't working on Second Life. It was most informative. Your post pretty much nails the boards in place. A company does not gain new users by alienating them with heavy-handed, square-peg-in-round-hole, equipment-abusing non-upgrades.
Jessica Hultcrantz
I think one of the big issues is to teach the userbase that lacks technical knowledge about the technology. People still think fullbright is a thing.
I've been in SL since 2007, and experienced the transition to windlight, the move to ALM, and now PBR. (Yes I enjoy PBR). What hits me as being an absolute necessity is to adjust as a user. Every technology trasision has demanded adjustments to the viewer settings to maintain the look and feel.
I think that is the issue. The broad userbase doesn't seem to understand the need for adjustments, for a good experience.
It can be done, I frequently sail with a PBR viewer f.ex., but it has taken time to tweak graphic settings for performance. Like every previous technology update also needed.
Perhaps explain in easy wording how the rendering pipeline has chaged over the years, and what each version's special terminology actually means in reality for a non-technical average user?
That's my l$ 0.02 worth of thinking out loud today
Eren Padar
Jessica Hultcrantz I appreciate your viewpoint and opinion, but as a user of 21+ years with a pretty decent desktop gamer system, I have to say that while some of the points you make are valid... you may have a different outlook entirely if your computer wasn't up to top-shelf specs.
"I think that is the issue. The broad userbase doesn't seem to understand the need for adjustments, for a good experience."
I disagree. I'm pretty sure most users are aware of their equipment limitations and needs. The real issue is Linden Lab not stopping to think about or understand the needs and situation of their users, especially in these tough economic times.
I've seen such comments throughout these forums. Yours is one of the least-objectionable. Others are basically, "If you want to use Second Life, buy a better computer"... which is hogwash mentality. While true to a certain extent, the demands that Second Life puts on computer equipment exceeds every other piece of software that I own... excessively.
cont
Eren Padar
cont...
One should not have to own a top-shelf computer system to use SL. As Zalificent states, such mentality if continued, will eventually drive the everyday user to other platforms (and frankly, already has, by the millions). Does Linden Lab have any real idea how many millions of people have tried Second Life, thrown up their hands in frustration, and never returned?
While Linden Lab is taking their $millions a month to the bank, other less-intensive systems are taking their tens-of-millions. There is a reason for that: Second Life has a nearly straight up learning curve and extreme equipment requirements, greater than any computer game I've seen on the market. This is the ONLY platform I've ever found that can challenge the performance of my hand-built, custom-specs gamer system.
Bottom line, Linden Lab doesn't seem to know when to say "Good enough, now let's fix the foundation and general performance." They are constantly adding half-baked, poorly-implemented additions without consideration for what this is going to do to the end user. The gave us mesh, but no in-world mesh-building tools-- and thus pretty much destroyed the in-world creative community and experience. Now we have to EXIT Second Life and create on Blender or other 3D program. What were they thinking? We used to have in-world building parties and contests. That environment is now almost dead (or is dead and simply twitching).
That sums up Linden Lab and SL for the two+ decades I've been a member. They seldom seem to stop and ask the simple question: "Will this be of benefit to our customers overall?"
Telling customers to "keep up with the tech" is exactly the wrong message to send to SL residents. While some degree of tech is necessary, no customer was ever gained by forcing entire systems to become obsolete overnight. PBR did just that.
Marie Nebestanka
I've enjoyed SL since 2007 with a series of average desktops. I am not going to replace my 4 year old PC just because LL thinks PRB is an upgrade. They are making a huge mistake if they can't keep SL available to most people. SL was great in 2007 when we all looked like the first crude Tomb Raider Lara Croft.
Eren Padar
Marie Nebestanka I was around in 2007, which was considered "golden years" for Second Life. The repetitious crashes had stopped for the most part, lag had decreased, people were happy. I was also around in 2008 when LL made one, single "kill the golden goose" decision that cost them a huge hunk of their grid. They used to post region counts on their splash page; they ceased doing that (likely due to embarrassment). I wonder to this day if their region count is as high as it was 4th quarter 2007 / 1st quarter 2008. I can't help but wonder if the platform as a whole ever recovered from that debacle.
I am glad to see many of the changes that have happened on SL. Not so glad to see others. Mesh made the world prettier... and at the same time killed out in-world creation for the most part (because LL didn't think it necessary to create an in-world mesh editor or a basic mesh sphere shape). We have regularly seen new toys introduced while core-foundation bugs still exist that have been on the board for years.
The point you make is a good one, and one I've made to LL time and again: Second LIfe graphics don't have to be perfect / real life to be enjoyable. The legacy graphics worked fine, and frankly I don't need a mirror to see what my avatar looks like. I understand there are advantages to PBR, but certainly not as it was implemented on SL. They could have set PBR on the back burner and SL would have been just as profitable and functional for the next year or two or three. PBR was not an essential update, and certainly not worth the extreme trouble it caused. It was another in a long line of blundering decisions. At least Philip Linden had the grace to publicly and earnestly apologize for the error. Gotta give him creds for that, but it didn't fix the outrage from angered customers.
2007 to 2008 saw a drastic and extreme change on Second Life. One would have hoped LL would learn from that to stop making knee-jerk decisions without sufficient forethought, planning, and covering all the bases.
I'm not trying to be mean to LL; this is just straight business talk. It's a reality of life: one doesn't gain customers by alienating them.
steph Arnott
99% of SL clients could not care less and all the information is online if one is interested. As a creator what irritates me is the massive amount of trash on the MP.
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