Oatmeal Linden This move is incredibly disappointing, since this is supposed to be the main venue for direct feedback. Makes me rethink my passion for mainland exploration :(

Furthermore: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Mainland_policies

> Other prohibited land cutting includes subdividing land in a manner that decreases the ability of other residents to enjoy their land, collaborate and/or exercise land-management controls, or in a way that constitutes harassment of another resident

LL has subdivided this land in a way that decreases the ability of anyone who buys into those beaches to enjoy their land, and also decreases the ability to other residents to enjoy that protected waterway (which has been shrunk to give this land baron those water parcels). This seems to be against your mainland policies.

Oatmeal Linden well, the problem is that that you’ve parceled off the waterway so a land baron can uglify that coast with mesh islands and devalue the beaches.

If this land owner was entitled to coastal land due to holdings in gaeta I, beaches would be more appropriate (and look nicer) than these water parcels.

Those beautiful beaches had an opportunity to be something great and the first thing yall did was block them with those parcels.

Oatmeal Linden This is you guys giving a land baron permission to encroach though?

Oatmeal Linden with all due respect, this doesn't address the issue of appearance. We all know it can take a very long time for abuse reports to get acted on, regardless of how egregious the offense may be.

Oatmeal Linden The rule should be that if someone desires the water between land and a protected water way, the parcel must also hold an equal amount of the adjacent land - These should all be 2048x1024 parcels at a minimum.

This land owner will put up a wall to block the land behind them, it's objectively worse than claiming 16sqm parcels along roadside to block road access.

It wasnt so long ago then such a land request would have been denied - This is why none of the other land lords moved from Gaeta1 asked - They didn't think there was any way Linden would allow it.

Oatmeal Linden Give him a refund and remove those parcels. It should be reverted back to Protected Water asap.

Oatmeal LindenPlease fly out to Neon Nights and surrounding sims to see the situation. Your own Governor Linden coastline land has now been turned into "waterbehind" that you auction and will be forced to maintain as "protected" (32K? really, Oatmeal?) because you will never sell your "waterbehind" on the coast now blocked by 4096 textured boards. We totally get it that you don't like reversing customer purchases that were styled as legitimate. But you yourself should not set up auctions in a matter that devalue your own product for yourself and others. Auction the coastline -- the water that hugs the land on the coast. Leave the water lots further out "protected". the end. Maybe you cannot salvage this particular disaster, but don't do auction parcels like this again, please. Mind the view.

Prokofy Neva Just one correction, this wasn't an auction but apparently Lex wanted these parcels in exchange for his Gaeta I lands and they just let him have them without thinking about the consequences. Other than that, you're entirely right. This also means, however, that this could be reversed by the Lab because these parcels weren't purchased but allocated in compensation for the Gaeta I shutdown. So they could just move him again or arrange his parcels correctly.

Eris RavenwoodThis is indeed an ugly offering and it's a typical sleazy land baron tactic -- those "rentals" will go on sale (and some are already on sale for over US $479 for only a 4096!) in order to force people behind or near by to "buy back the view". We get that tactic, truly. But once the Lindens let someone swap their Gaeta 1 land in this fashion, they can hardly then grab it back or order what kind of content he should put on his own land.

You don't even own land on or near this sim, and this ugly board strip isn't in your view as such. Instead, what you are demanding is circumnavigation and thoroughfare through other people's land. But why do you imagine you can have that?! You can't. Sailors can't be given right aware EVERYWHERE. There is only a tiny handful of people desperate to "circumnavigate the globe". Sailors have plenty of land elsewhere. So you can't really make a case here and the Lindens are right to close it. You want to tell other people what to do on their land, and the Lindens are not going to help you with that excessive demand. There are other questions to ask, and I am asking Oatmeal them directly.

Jelly DollBut that's not rational. Why should someone be FORCED to buy extra land and tier it just because they want to be on the edge of a continent where PS they were on Gaeta 1? As noted, I find this tactic ugly and stupid and it doesn't work to land; at best it sometimes to "buy the view" if they are behind or merely to the side. I see only two rentals taken from this "lovely offering". But you can hardly start a high-handed version of the Lindens old demand of requiring a purchase of an island before getting a homestead -- which they did to reduce wear and tear on their own infrastructure and numerous land barons bought and filpped homesteads, overloading them with tenants and scripts which was not the Lindens' original intent.

In this case, you cannot change the ownership or the content the owner puts on his land. So this notion that just because we all find his "offering" to be tacky and manipulative doesn't mean that he has to pay a heavy fine. There are other questions to ask Oatmeal directly and I am doing this

Oatmeal LindenWhat is "Expected" supposed to mean now? That you are changing the "Closed" status to...what exactly? Again, the mystery of this entire 5-sim craziness is why YOU did not first parcel your land to be auctioned -- prime coastal land -- and then make the far edge water protected -- as you do on most Mainland coastal sims. You could have told someone from Gaeta 1 that he can take one full sim of 4096 parcels if he likes for the 65,536 m2 but that you can't give him the thin 4095 m2 strip across 5 sims on the far less desirable "razor edge" of unfinished Gaeta 1. In fact, now that you are clawing back Gaeta 1, why not give him his Razor's Edge back? Then he can go back to RPing Larry Darrell. "The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard."

For the life of me, I cannot understand your thinking on these sims with prime coastal sandy land that you could have auctioned for a fortune. Don't you have to make bank, too? In any event, the reality is, CIY is the owner of what other commenters perceive as a "public way" -- it's his private property. PS I was able to ride an anaeternity spam boat through it just fine : )

Paul HexemNo, because the land baron put mesh islands that he fully owns. He was moved to the water's edge in a swap from the Gaeta 1 edge. He is occupying his land lawfully. What Eris is demanding is the right to sail through it without ugly mesh square boards and/or ban lines. But he doesn't have that right to pass through and he should sail elsewhere.

Elora LunaseaAbuse report on what grounds? That it is ugly to have stupid boards with ugly sand textures pasted across a thin strip of water edge? We all agree that it is ugly, stupid, and exploitative. But the guy is on his property given to him by the Lindens in a swap, and no one can deman the right to sail through it. Sail out there to Neon Nights and Velvet Nights and just look, please.

AlettaMondragon ResidentIt does not matter. The protected land of some 32K remaining after the 4096 boards isn't going to STAY protected; it would naturally be AUCTIONED. Yes, they let him have this strip and they should have thought first of all of THEIR OWN AUCTIONS not to mention under swapping customers. But they cannot fix this own goal. Eris and other sailors do not have some innate right to sail through other's properties. It is not protected water that CIY is encroaching on. CIY's master plan there, which is already coming into focus, is to sell those 4096s for a fortune to people who want to look out at a void as the ideal view, just a bit more finished than Gaeta. That still leaves the problem of how the coast is going to sell lol.

The owner said on the forums that he "lost all his customers in the move". Small wonder lol. Now he should be give the option to move back to Gaeta 1 -- but to a scalloped edge. That would free up the nice Zindra 2 parcels for auction in a better parceled state. The parceling that the Lindens did here in chasing exact dimensions of much crappier Gaeta 1 land just floor me. I don't understand why they felt they needed to do one-for-one parceling. The offer should have been for square meters. PS the precedent for that is how they did the original Mainland "M" to Zindra 1.0 -- there was no guarantee of any "one for one" in terms of look, location, dimenstions. It was square meters only. Look at this idiotic parcel for example, where the board matches the parcel lines.

Prokofy Neva Wow, it's astonishing that you took the time to write all these replies to everyone just to tell us all how each of us was wrong. Even more astonishing since this feedback ticket was closed more than a week ago. I shall take it as a compliment though that I got the longest reply. Thank you. :)

Prokofy Neva fwiw my pronouns are she/her and what I was asking for is that LL reverse their decision to parcel off that formerly protected land and keep it protected in order to protect the coastline for sailors and folks who eventually buy the coastline. CIY should have been given coastline instead of squeezing sailors into a tiny thruway.

And yeah, I don't own land on zindra. I'm purely here because I like to explore mainland and I feel like parceling like this is detrimental to the beauty of mainland and hurts exploration and discovery.

Paul HexemThis particular land baron Judge Firecaster didn't encroach anywhere, but was swapped to Zindra 2.0 to a play of his chosing. He chose the far edge of water in front of Linden-owned coastal land that might have been possible to auction, and put up the ugly boards. There isn't anything to be done about it as he the original plan enabled anyone to pick land they wanted in Zindra 2 and request it, and move into it. The Lindes could have said "You have to stay all on one sim and not take up a thin strip across five sims" or anything they liked (as PS they did with the original swap years ago from Mainland M parcels to Zindra 1.0). They didn't. But they can't really do anything about it now.

AlettaMondragon ResidentI didn't say it was an auction -- they didn't start yet -- and I said it was a customer purchase in the swap. The point is about the Lindens' OWN future auctions and how they will cope having given the water's edge away to this board guy.

Eris RavenwoodMy pronouns are he/his and you did not respect them at the Land meeting. You failed to grasp in the Land meeting and for the weeks since that the Lindens made a program where anyone on Gaeta 1 COULD PICK the land they wanted to swap to in Zindra 2. Judge Firecaster PICKED and they APPROVED THIS. They cannot "reverse" a land purchase they enabled from the get go. You're showing your hand once again in caring only about your small group of sailors and not the broader community if you are willing to cede to ugly board rentals the coast line just to give your sailors right-of-way!!! This is so wrong!

The Lindens could have done this differently -- they didn't. Their own future auctions of that coast land (if they attempt them) are in jeopardy -- your sailing privileges are not the issue nor can they ever be the issue when it comes to *other people's land".

This ugly stuff is on 5 sims, not all of Zindra. And You can't demand right-of-way through every single coast sim in the known Metaverse because the Lindens and other people can't tier empty water just for you to have fun, the cost is too high. The fact that you don't even own land here in Zindra 2 makes your disruption of the Land meeting in Voice, your outrageous behaviour to me for pointing out your overreach, all the more awful. This board guy is not in YOUR view. You can't sail everywhere in the world. You have plenty of places to sail already. Take a seat.

Your Canny is closed and rightly so and you should cease your over-reach demanding right-of-way across other people's properties. Lots of things are detrimental to the beauty of the Mainland. I can think of a dozen things around the areas I own that are outrageous, even giant 64 x 64 racist billboard that the Lindens refuse to move. They are obsessive about maintaining property rights and if you yourself actually owned property you might appreciate this more. Meanwhile, stay off of other people's property. The ugliness of this view, the poor decision to allow this swap -- it's mainly a problem for the Lindens' own auctions, not you, not sailors as a group, and not anyone else appreciating the Mainland like me. Eventually the board guy will sell out at a huge price. The end.

Prokofy Neva for what it's worth I didn't know your pronouns at the land meeting and i'll use the correct ones going forward. They're not in your profile or websites or anywhere so I default to "they/them" for folks I don't know what they prefer. Mine are in my profile.

I know this was done in a swap from gaeta 1. No need to be patronizing about it. I did not "disrupt" any meeting, I just asked a basic question at an open meeting. You've done more to disrupt with your ridiculous walls of text and constant spam.

Also, I do own "property" in SL, just not on Zindra, because it's too expensive to buy land there. Hopefully with all the new land that gets better.

Eris RavenwoodI don't subscribe to oppressive ideologies such as the coerced use of pronouns; I do it as a courtesy and you know full well my pronouns and chose to join the bullies harassing me after a Linden office hour. Shame on you. And shame on you MORE for raising an issue of . Especially when the Lindens have created enormous numbers of waterways all over SL to sail.

This idea that the sailing lobby of SL has eminent domain and "must" go anywhere -- even on private property just because it's on the water edge of a sim -- has really got to go. It's a shame the Lindens are indulging it. You didn't own property on Gaeta 1. You didn't swap into Zindra 2. And yet you held up a whole Land meeting -- in VOICE -- to harass the Lindens and a landowner with an unacceptable demand to "sail everywhere". It's UNCANNY.

Prokofy Neva The real point here is that if you look at the map, LL could have designed those islands in those regions in a way that the coastline would be closer to the protected parcels on the eastern world edge. It was never a question that they would give that coastal land to Gaeta I landowners, and it also wouldn't be a problem if they gave them large parcels that included the beach as well. That is exactly what was expected. The only problem with what they did is that they cut off the entire coast by giving those full water parcels to CIY, so now if anyone wants to get a large parcel there that has both the beach and water view and access, they will have to rent or buy those full water CIY parcels.

Sailing in general isn't a problem there now, the 28m wide waterway on the world edge seems to be doing just fine and there isn't any sailing destination anywhere nearby, so it's probably not like sailors end up there often. Of course if someone doesn't want to open a marina in an area that is difficult to approach and full of eyesores on the way, this further reduces the value of the land in the area. But hey, the whole point was to lower adult rated land prices somehow, so this might work.

Still astonishing that you keep this argument going under this closed ticket. :)

Prokofy Neva You literally made two of my friends cry after that meeting. I didn't harass anyone, I was sticking up for my friend. I didn't hold up any meetings in voice, I barely talk in these meetings. This one time I had a question, I raised it in local chat, and you blasted with walls of texts causing folks to miss it. Someone asked for me again, and more walls of text. You repeatedly interrupted me and everyone else in that meeting, monopolizing local chat with walls of text. I eventually needed to ask on voice, I got interrupted by you again, and the meeting moved on. Eventually I got my answer after the meeting in IMs.

And no, I don't know you. We've interacted in-world like, twice. Of course I don't know your pronouns. I do now, and I won't make that mistake again, and I apologize for my mistake.

I don't even sail that often, I just don't like seeing coastlines ruined by land barons. SL's contiguous mainland is what makes it different from other metaverses with individual "worlds" you teleport between. This kind of action from LL pushes people away from mainland, away from exploring, and towards behaviors folks can do better in any of SL's competitors.

AlettaMondragon ResidentThe world of Second Life isn't merely for sailors, and the tiny number of sailors who wish to "circumnavigate the globe". The business model for the Lindens is to sell land/server space. The covenant and the practice of these sales is that the owners can exclude others from their properties. The notion that the Lindens have to enable sailors' right-of-way always and everywhere across private properties has no basis in Linden law or practice. There were 5 sims -- again, 5 sims out of 90 -- where a swapper was enabled to block the coast. But it's not YOUR coast or ERIS' coast as neither of you own land there! This ugly build isn't in YOUR view. You're merely demanding on behalf of a tiny constituency that you should get to sail through anywhere you wish. And there is no reason to cave to this special pleading. There are large properties on the other side of the road with plenty of sailing around that part of Zindra -- and you yourself admit there are plenty of other places to sail. So give it up! PS I was able to ride an annaeternity spam boat directly through the boards on those 5 sims.

Happy to keep arguing against the special pleaders of SL who want themselves to encroach on others' land and the public waterways.

Oh, do stop with the histrionics. All of you behaved outrageously, raising an issue that had zero legitimacy, hammering on it repeatedly, and attempted to harass and heckle me and others during and after the meeting. The record shows this handily. I pasted a mere paragragh into the text with my issue -- not any 'wall o' text' -- and I had to listen to an hour more of hysterics about it. It was hardly the length of the transcript of YOUR OWN VOICE INTERVENTION itself, about an area where you yourself had no land, about an abstract issue that you were instigating drama and panic around for no good reason. Your claim to respect pronouns is also completely hollow and you know it.

There are PLENTY OF PLACES of contiguous waterways, including some hastily added on even since that meeting! -- where people can sail to their hearts' content if they aren't obsessive about "circumnavigating the globe." There are 5 sims in the new Zindra -- and possibly some other people where people where you will not get to sail. No one has been pushed away from old Mainland or new Zindra. Fly around and see plenty of people having the time of their lives, including sailing on land they purchased -- instead of demanding that everyone else make way for them.

Just because you don't like something aesthetically doesn't entitle you to change the laws of the Metaverse. That's the problem with this entire gambit that not only you but SarahB7 have embarked on -- it is an appalling demand for eminent domain for a tiny sect that itself is not paying for the tier of the world.

Prokofy Neva Okay so do you own land there?

If you still don't, you're also arguing here from an outsider's perspective, just like us.

"Happy to keep arguing against the special pleaders of SL who want themselves to encroach on others' land and the public waterways."

I can't speak for others on this, I personally don't want to sail through anyone's private land and I advise others to avoid it as well. I appreciate the privilege granted by a few rental companies that keep public channels open at choke points where there isn't LL-owned public water, but that's all.

The old waterway through the southern edge of Zindra (for example Jaraded) is 16 meters wide, so the 28m width of the new one on the eastern edge is much better. Southern Zindra is not a sailing paradise in any sense, so I don't know why you're so vocal about this here. Are you really so jealous of public spaces that you have a problem with these ridiculously narrow waterways?

I have no idea what you mean by encroaching on the public waterways, though. The purpose of the public waterways is that we can use watercraft on them, you know, for traveling. If you want to see actual encroachment on public waterways, look for objects sticking out into them or bulky, distorted physics shapes acting as invisible obstacles, or piers occupying several meters of the narrow waterways' width. Watercraft traveling on public waterways are not encroaching on them, it is the intended use of the waterways.

AlettaMondragon ResidentYour incessant antagonism and trolling only makes your statements more vacuous and unpersuasive. This story isn't about me. It's about a tiny group of sailors:

It's not about supposed persons of good will (none of you meet that test) trying to comment on the issues of the day because in fact, the OP and all of you are trying to incite unlawful actions going against the Lindens own rules, namely:

I'm not the one invoking "encroachment"; various lobbyists from the sailors' sect are claiming "encroachment" falsely in the CIY case AND complaining about actual encroachment on a sea lane elsewhere as they feel this is their ceaseless mission.

I constantly travel around numerous sims where either I have land or I want to visit friends or where I am exploring and I see enormous amounts of sailing land without the claimed impediments of constant encroachment and orbs.

Anyone is free to buy land and build their dream and/or sail on the numerous sea lanes the Lindens already created all over the world.

Meanwhile, when I see tiny lobbies of people trying to engineer the Viewer and the world only to their satisfaction and convenience, I speak up as a member of the public legitimately concerned about the rule of law (such as it is in SL) and the legitimate public interest.

AlettaMondragon Resident Nothing new to see here. I made this point weeks ago already and called it "an own goal" by the Lindens because it will be hard for THEM now to sell their own land on the auction. So what? They gave a large land baron land that he requested on 5 sims instead of trying to bargain with him into staying on one or two sims and/or changing their parceling. Meanwhile, you all keep imagining that if you heckle, harass, browbeat, and keep commenting on the forums, at Office Hours, and on CLOSED Cannies that you can force the Lindens into reversing their decision here, or changing their behaviou elsewhere. Clearly, you cannot.

Instead, weeks after first their announcement of the Gaeta 1 deletion on August 4, then their later reversal, they haven't evicted this eyesore land baron tenant of Governor Linden, nor done what you want elsewhere in this regard. All they've done is lay out some more sailing water sims elsewhere -- but as we could have told them 20 years ago: it's never enough. It doesn't matter which sea lane is what width, the appetite grows in the eating and the Lindens shouldn't be feeding this beast.

I'm not the one continuing to demand the Lindens change their ways or endlessly trying to antagonize people like me who pay them tier under their business model. Here, as in every other setting, you and a handful of others imagine you can bully and scream and get the Lindens to part from their own business model relying largely on land sales (server space rental) and instead, pressure them into providing miles and miles of thruways on sea lanes and roads that have to pay for as a company. So when this lobby keeps trying to destroy the world in this way, inciting hatred of land barons, trying to force them off their land, trying to overthrow the Lindens I continue to fight back.