Codex Alpha Agreed. When they say "terrain would look solid gray" my question is, "Why can't LL detect when the viewer isn't set to PBR and make the terrain default to grass... like they have for 21 years?"

Sometimes I think people make excuses instead of trying to find solutions.

Codex Alpha It takes time, you have to configure a lot of stuff in the texture changing hud, also extra scrips. Do you want a more laggy SL experience? Make PBR optional and you'll see how laggy it gets

Apparently that's LL's recommendation after all:

UPDATE: Apparently the plan is PBR + Baked Diffuse in 'legacy' slot

Cynos3D Resident "Can't feasibly move forward as a platform or as a serious content creator if you have to worry about two completely different rendering technologies.... Blinn-phong rendering is a dead end..."

To both of these statements I have to say "nonsense". First, there are MILLIONS (billions?) of Blinn-phong textures active on this grid. Does anyone seriously think creators are going to go back and and replace every texture they've every used with more-difficult-to-create PBR textures?

Second, content creators have had to work with multiple platforms for years. Is there just ONE mesh body? When we see clothing, we note which body it's intended to be used with... and often there are multiple body styles in one package.

Creators adapt to whatever the environment requires. I make SMOL items, and I often have to employ animations for "biggies", "tinies" and "dinkies". Three different animations in one device. That's just the life of a creator. Claiming that creators can't do this with PBR and Blinn-Phong is simply not true. The problem isn't with the creators; it's with the attitude of those who are insisting that everyone adapt to their whims (the leader of which seems to be Linden Lab).

I'm all for PBR... so long as it doesn't kick users in the teeth and destroy a system that's been employed for over 2 decades. Telling people, "Oh sorry, you're going to have to buy a new computer!" is far more concerning than a creator using a sensible texture scheme... or simply indicating "This is a PBR item" just as we currently indicate "This clothing is for Legacy / Matryea / whatever."

Been a creator / scripter / merchant since 2004. Creators aren't the issue here. Telling people they may no longer be able to use SL without buying a new computer is the issue.

As an example... a friend of mine bought a brand new business-level laptop just two years ago. It has served her well. It has reasonable graphics, but it's not a gamer-level system. She's been able to use SL just fine... until now. So what is she supposed to do... scrap her near-new computer just so she can use Second Life? (I did mention to her that when she bought that business computer she should have bought a gamer system instead... but the difference in price was $500, not an insignificant chunk of cash.)

So no, Blinn-Phong is not a dead end. We creators CAN adapt (we've been doing so for two decades). The bottom line is that someone needs to get their attitude in order and consider this from more than a "this is what I want and nothing else is possible" perspective. LL can do whatever they set their sights to do... if people just stop making excuses and claiming "It can't be done!".

Eren Padar

Going to refer to Blinn-phong as Bl-Ph because that's a mouthful.

Firstly, nobody said or assumed creators were about to go to go back and retexture their old stuff in mass, it's a complete waste of time and financially unfeasible outside of key, well performing products or a labor of love. Nobody said Bl-Ph materials were going to be left in the dust either PBR is backwards compatible, most of them still render fine with some exceptions due to the new linear color space causing issues. They can keep existing as they are but could need some extra support from LL such as tailoring a shader specifically for Bl-Ph to avoid making objects look like trash under PBR lighting, that's on them and i fully support you petitioning LL to do right by their customers in this regard.

Secondly i'll let you have fun juggling an ever growing collection of mesh bodies for modeling, rigging, weight painting, texturing and packaging under ever stricter licensing constraints since you seem so fond of it. If you've actually created content for mesh bodies you'll know the depths of frustration that comes with it in the current paradigm.

Third, i'm not interested in crawling on sandpaper to perform tasks which have been optimized and smoothed out to the point of no longer feeling like work due to modern industry tools and standardized workflows. There is no reason we need to keep doing things "As they've always been" if there is a better path forward that significantly cuts back the friction between the idea you've got in mind and making a marketable product or realizing your creative vision. Our whole civilization was built on that simple principle, content creators don't want to have to burn out because you feel they can "do better with what they have now." for what's already a risky financial venture that doesn't always pay off despite pulling a miracle out of their hats with archaic tools.

Fourth, PBR materials under gLTF are practically universally supported, thoroughly documented, easy to learn and create with even basic tools like photoshop. Everything i know about this stuff i learned myself on YouTube or through other content creator friends, doing the hard work and following my passion. You claim creators can adapt, so adapt to this format and you could even potentially land yourself a job with valuable, marketable skills working professionally in a studio or as an Indie dev if you so choose.

Fifth, Bl-Ph is just a shading model, it's absolutely a technological dead end and has long since been supplanted by more efficient and realistic shading technologies, it's not a hill anyone should be willing to die on for the sake of their artistic integrity. I don't hear you complaining about the ever increasing system requirement of software, games and creation tools across the last decade on PC, Mobile and Business machines as technology marches on, why is SL any different? No financially sensible software developer wants to support hardware as old as what SL is currently running on, it's a developmental and logistical nightmare. They only do this when it makes business sense, like with ancient computers running a business, etc.

Xth, At the end of the day LL is a business that needs to remain somewhat profitable and dare i say grow it's revenue. They're not going to achieve that with a platform that's frequently referred to looking ugly and dated like it's stuck in 2007.

Whatever-th, If you want to keep focusing your efforts on Bl-Ph instead of giving PBR some serious consideration and seeing it's potential benefits in the long run, that's your call but you better get comfortable seeing [Please use a PBR viewer] textures everywhere because people are already making the switch and making some nice money off their PBR creations.

Cynos3D Resident PBR is however highly disruptive and changes like this should be NON-DESTRUCTIVE which it is not. It is affecting many older items and makes them look bad, because the rendering and lighting system is simply bad. SL is not A STANDARD in gaming industry and it will never be. Why would it need PBR? I am also against PBR. It should be options. In my Group many people dislike it and wont use a viewer untill they are used to do so.

Zeth Starlight I both agree and disagree that "PBR can't be optional". I have always considered "It can't be done!" to be an exclamation of incompetence or laziness.

But one thing I know for a certainty is that PBR can be employed and STILL allow non-PBR systems to operate. There is no doubt or question of that. PBR is a set of special effects... and those special effects can be turned off. I know this for a fact: I've experimented a lot and learned how to do so. The only thing some people can't get around is the forced Advanced Lighting. Can Linden Lab simply include an automatic Advanced Lighting toggle which detects systems that can't use it? Sure, the textures may look a little more dull and not as vibrant... but they should still remain visible.

Using Firestorm 7.1 and having a graphics card that can definitely handle PBR, I have turned off Mirrors (super laggy fuction), Shadows (turn everything really dark), throttled my FPS to 56 (still works fine, no glitches at all), cancelled all reflections (I don't care about reflections. I just want to see what's around me) etc etc. In effect, I've turned off all the "lag factors" of PBR except for Advanced Lighting, which control has been removed from the user.

So again, I disagree that "PBR can't be optional". For all intents and purposes it CAN... should LL decide to re-think that forced Advanced Lighting issue. Then for all users... make PBR an opt-in function, so that people don't crash the moment they load the grid. Because surprisingly... if new users crash when trying out SL, they go do something else instead! (Like play their favorite 3D game or use another virtualworld... which works just fine on their system.)

As a note: The prior version of Firestorm is still in existence... and people are using it just fine with the new PBR SL. Yes, PBR textures look flat and some things aren't as fancy... but I believe this proves beyond doubt that using PBR isn't absolutely essential to using SL.

It's a matter of attitude, both of users and of Linden Lab. It is NOT absolutely necessary to abandon the legacy system entirely. The fact that the prior version of Firestorm still works is solid proof of that fact.

In most comments I've seen, no one has sensibly asked Linden Lab to cancel PBR. They've simply asked Linden Lab to not cancel non-PBR viewers. There's simply no need to do so.

Zeth Starlight There's a REASON why I've been playing SL, it's one of the few recreational activities that didn't (until recently) require a "state of the art" system. If you want "OMG GRAPHICS!!!" play something else.

Aglaia Resident In this hypothetical, a viewer with PBR enabled should surely approach this by simply only downloading the PBR textures if they are available.

The fact that it downloads both right now is ludicrous for people already viewing on setups that don't utilize blinn-phong fallbacks, but that's not to say that older (but still excellent) content made with that method should suddenly stop displaying unless those creators go back and remake the materials for PBR.

As it stands, having access to both with the development priority being invested in PBR's future appearance is a much more curated approach to ensuring the platform continues to grow and improve while the majority of its core value - the things which exist there - are not made immediately obsolete.

I realize we've already had this happen already with the move from prims/sculpts, classic bodies/clothes, but while I don't doubt some things will be outpaced in quality by the availability of this new medium, there's really no need for most things to stop working.

PBR changes the way an environment needs to be lit, but many pieces of fantastic mesh use a combination of prebaked lighting and clever specular work to approximate a result that sits comfortably beside PBR, and should be able to continue to do so in SL just as you can in engines like Unity & Unreal, or renderers like Marmoset.

In kind, by way of this suggestion, users who don't have the hardware for this kind of rendering would have the PBR option unchecked, and the viewer would only download available blinn-phong textures, ignoring the PBR tag. Unfortunately they would be unable to see new, PBR-exclusive content, but they're facing that anyway if we stay this course, and at least they'd be able to continue to view legacy items.

Mirror Mondegreen Well-said Mirror... and that is the point. There is no need to discard Blinn-Phong... and Blinn-Phong will never be discarded. There are too many creations that use it. Few creators will be willing to re-texture hundreds of items they've made to use PBR.

There needs to be a happy medium set here so that no one is left out... a little bit of common sense employed, recognizing the vanity of discarding the concept of 21 years worth of texturing in an ill-thought and poorly-implemented switch to PBR.

The best thing I've seen in the new viewer is the ability to apply either PBR or Blinn-Phong textures to a creation. YES! Give the user a choice!

Now... give them the choice to ignore PBR if their computer can't handle it. That's one of those DUH things, yes?

In this case we CAN have our cake and eat it too... if someone just bothers to think creatively and with vision. A little reality-check wouldn't hurt either.

Zephyr Starchild Have you tried to use any other viewer? FS has always been harder to run than some other viewers. I haven't tried their PBR release though, so I don't know if FS improved the performance in the last 6 months.

nulshift Resident I have but FS is the easiest Viewer to do my SL job in so even if I went to another viewer I would still be having to deal with FS

Zephyr Starchild Bingo. Well-stated.

I will say again that the primary thing standing in the way on these new viewers is FORCED ADVANCED LIGHTING. It that problem is removed and PBR is set to opt-in instead of force-crashing a system... this would likely correct the current issues.

I have a notecard in-world that shows lots of ways to eliminate the lag caused by PBR. They are simple graphics settings that fix the problem immediately. The only thing that can't be fixed is the forced Advanced Lighting... and that's what's killing people's systems.

Good post Zephyr.

Crexon Resident How about a standard that meets the needs of all users instead of a specific high-level set? "I can use PBR so what do I care about other users?" is not a good attitude.

Molly Starlight Maybe there are more important things on the TO DO list than PBR.

xaka Chayoo No

Kinezis Resident Normally I don't respond to trolls, this time however I am doing so, I have to apologize. How could I even think that all the security issues, privacy issues and other bugs were more important than this...what's it called...PBR .., how could I. Thanking you, Bless your heart.